JAZMIN: Good afternoon friends. How are y'all? Welcome... Thank you for joining me today.
Um, so much has happened since we last met and had this conversation um but it still felt relevant and important to come together and talk about how we're processing, how we are doing in the midst of two pandemics, right, both COVID-19 and anti-Black racism and what does it mean for us to be trying to live and work and be human beings in the middle of all of this. So before we jump in, I want to introduce myself and give you both an opportunity to introduce yourselves. My name is Jazmin Pichardo. My pronouns are she/her/hers. I'm the Assistant Director of Diversity Training and Education in the Office of Diversity and Inclusion. And my, like, introduction question for all of us - it's just how are you feeling in your bodies? And being really mindful of my body has been a way that I check in with myself because definitely... when this process started I was not. And I definitely felt my body responding to me and letting me know that we were not okay. So how I'm feeling in my body today is relaxed, um...tension free, and it's a very different feeling from where I was three months ago when we started working from home because of COVID-19 and the work from home order. so I invite you all to take it and introduce yourselves.

TYNESHA: Am I my next?

JAZMIN: Yeah sure 

TYNESHA: Okay, um so I am Tynesha McCullers. I use she/her/hers pronouns. I am a Resident Director at the University of Maryland, have been in this role for three years now um can't believe I'm going into my fourth year. How I am feeling in my body um you know I--I feel a lot of tension uh within myself, particularly like between my chest and my stomach. Every day I think with every piece of news um and every task I kind of like...I feel my body like ‘ugh’ like ‘ugh’ it's another thing um that I'm holding in me. So I think there's a lot of tension within me because I am holding so much within me, and it doesn't feel like I can put stuff out because as I am pushing stuff out more stuff comes in. Um so yeah that's kind of I - yeah - that's where where my body is.

JAZMIN: Thank you for saying that. Back when I was really struggling with working from home and everything, it makes me think of a question that kept playing in my head about like “How do you release what keeps pouring in?” and it's still a question that I'm mulling over and trying to figure out like knowing that my body physically is in a different place than where it was 
but that um there are still those moments of feeling like I gotta let go I gotta release this so that I can keep moving, yeah.

BEN: Hi my name is Ben Parks. My pronouns are he/him/his. I work on campus here at the University of Maryland with the College Park Scholars Living Learning Program and I'm feeling a lot in my body today, actually. Like I've been zooming around and I just - I can feel the palpable anxiety from our colleagues. I did some focus groups in the last couple days and it was both beautiful to see students and to see, to feel their energy because I realized also, like...I got into this to be with students and I haven't been seeing them. I've you know - bless our colleagues but you know a little bit too much at that time - and I realized um just how much I feel like I'm carrying in that way. Like I feel a sense of responsibility to our students and I don't know that we're living up to them so I need to like as I'm saying it out loud I need to sort of give myself ..Like, “Ben you don't need to carry all this. You can name it, you can critique it, you can work, but this isn't yours.” And acknowledge where that comes from, and I'm sure we'll unpack that as we move forward so I'm feeling a lot of that sort of anxiety, sort of as a vessel um, so my own anxiety I suppose about the um uncertainty for the future. And candidly for sort of where are we at right now with Black lives...You know, okay like, we're a month after George floyd and we're sending emails but what does action really look like, right?

JAZMIN: That's a question that I don't have answers to, but similarly I'm just like curious about what it's going to look like moving forward for sure. I want to share that like what inspired this conversation, besides just struggling to keep working initially, like forcing myself to keep going, to keep acting and behaving as if what was happening in the world around me wasn't affecting me, right...That if I could control like my little corner of work that that was gonna sustain me and get me through. And it was actually uh, Tynesha, your away message or initial away message when we first started working from home um that gave me that moment of like “Oh I *do* get to--I get to pause, I get to slow down.” And so I want to read it to folks and read it out loud, and just ask just what...What inspired you to put this together, to feel like it was necessary for people to hear this? So, the subject line was “Pause, Process, and Be gentle with yourself.” [reading:] “Hello and thank you for your email. As you might be aware, we are in the midst of a pandemic. That means various things for people. It might mean that you are sick, someone you know is sick, jobless, bills can't be paid, housing and/or food insecurity, and mental emotional health issues. I recognize that maintaining pre-COVID-19 productivity right now isn't a fair ask or expectation. Because of this, I am sincerely encouraging you to pause and allow yourself space to process in whatever ways feels most sufficient to you. I guarantee you that most projects, assignments, committees, organizations etc will be here when you are ready to return to them. There's no need to feel like you have to rush. Urgency can induce stress and create more issues for yourself. I also know firsthand that performing optimism is exhausting and can take a toll on a person, so don't feel like you have to be optimistic at all times. Lastly my plan is to follow what I am asking of others above while continuing to serve you as best as possible. Take care of yourself and protect your peace. With sympathy and compassion, Tynesha McCullers.”

Like, I paused. I saw that auto response and I was like “thank you” in my head. I really said “thank you” and this was back in March, right, so we've definitely had some time. This was 
also before Black Lives Matter protests started picking up. But even today and now I'm like this message keeps ringing in my ear. And so I wanted to ask you just what inspired you? What compelled you to do this? Why did it feel necessary?

TYNESHA: Well, can I honestly say having it read aloud to me, I was like “oh god” um like I--I you know, even though it's you talking Jazmin, it felt like oh it's like I'm talking to myself because I haven't uh read it in a while. I think I read it after I wrote it and then I just kind of put it up. I had a couple of eyes on it, but what brought me to that? Um you know honestly a lot of it was me not seeing anything anywhere. Because I felt like even back in March there were a lot of like emails about like you know everybody's working from home until this time and like make sure you're completing your timesheets, like business as usual kind of stuff, and I didn't feel like anybody who at least had access to me was really saying like “we're in a pandemic like for real for real like this is what this might mean.” I think you know part of it was we were all assuming that we all knew we were in a pandemic and I was like I'm not going to assume that of people um and even if I am going to make that assumption I also want to be assuming other things with that, right. Right with the pieces of like you know you're sick, somebody else is sick, you can't pay bills, like your mental health, and you know I'm like there are a lot of things that are happening in the midst of a semester. And particularly in my role as a Resident Director, I can't, you know, I have folks living on and we had some folks stay for emergency housing but I was like no one is saying like quite honestly -- can I curse on here?
 
JAZMIN: I mean keep it PG because I guess this is an ODI situation [laughs]

TYNESHA: Okay okay okay. I was like well you know like nobody is saying that this sucks, right, that the stuff that is happening right now sucks. No one's saying that. And I'm like I just want to be able to say “it sucks” and so honestly it started - ironically, it started as a letter that I sent to all of the students that I have contact with. I’ve participated in Alternative Spring Breaks and I've advised different groups and I supervise students, and so I was like I'm gonna send a message to all of those students right who are connected to me. And it was similar wording, obviously more geared towards them. And after I sent the message to them I also offered time in my schedule for them to like meet with me if they wanted to. I was like I should also say something to my colleagues um but I don't like -- sending some one-time message feels weird like I'm just gonna make this an auto reply like, you know, if people email me they'll get this response. And hopefully they'll read it and hopefully it'll be what it was for you Jazmin of like “Oh I need to -- I need to slow down.” And also selfishly I was like -- I need a break. I also need to slow down, like I'm exhausted. I'm trying to, you know, keep up pre-COVID production, like, that is exhausting me and I don't know how to tell other people to slow down. I don't know how else to do it. And writing tends to be one of my favorite ways to communicate. And so I was like I need some space, I need a break, and I need to pause, and I need to process. I need to also be gentle with myself and it was like a...I don't want to say a call, but it was very much “This is what I'm doing. I don't know what everybody else is doing but this is what I'm doing...you know, maybe you would want to do it too, it's up to you.”

JAZMIN: Yeah, I mean what I love, what I love about it is that it wasn't just a reminder to slow 
down, like it actually gave me permission. And I think it gave like us who are connected with one another, right, who are...who are in friendship and in community with one another like the space to feel like we could talk about it openly right and and to talk about like how exactly we are processing um this particular moment, how are we feeling. Some folks like the two of you right have found ways to make something meaningful out of this time and you both have modeled that in different ways, and want to open the floor for Ben also to share um... but that is what resonated with me, is that like-- that I needed permission from someone else to feel like “Oh it is okay to feel this way, it is okay to care about my job and want to do well but to also prioritize and care about myself” and so this has been...This was back in March, and we are still working from home. We are still in the middle of COVID, now with national movements for Black lives in the middle of re-entering or reopening the state and coming back to working on campus and just wanting to ask both of you -- how have you all been processing this experience 
since the last time we spoke about it or had a chance to check in? And yeah and 
Ben if you can share because I know lots has changed for you.

BEN: Well first I--before we do, Jazmin, I want to acknowledge like as kind of amplifying what you're saying is to say to Tynesha how grateful I am for that message. I mean you're right like it's funny you're having that response as the person who wrote it to hear it out loud but there is something so powerful about how you wrote that. And as Jazmin said, sort of the invitation like I felt seen in that message right, like “oh okay you know, like I *do* need to slow down here” and 
I'm just grateful for that. And I also, you know -- and I've told you this before -- but I think something so simple and yet powerful about an away message right like in some ways you're doing the work just by using an away message. And I think that's an invitation for all of us 
to consider in a lot of different ways which maybe we'll get to later... um i also-- and i told you this at the time -- when I first got that, I forwarded it on to a bunch of people and I received that similar to what Jazmin's conveyed, in sort of that same sense of like “Whoa I needed that.” So I was curious like what did you hear in response like as you said you sent it to students that was your away message for a number of weeks like what kind of response did you get and how are you making meaning of that now as we are still in this?

TYNESHA: Honestly I didn't I think one of the first things i realized was that people don't i I didn't know people actually read away messages 

JAZMIN: Well, when you get that subject line!

BEN: Right.

TYNESHA: Yeah I mean that's fair. That's fair. Because you know it’s like you said Ben it is very much something that I think we do routinely when I'm out of the office. Like when I was out of the office I would just put up an away message like “hey I will be out until this time and I'll see you back at this time” and so um I didn't know people actually read them and granted it's not lengthy but it is kind of lengthy. And so I was honestly surprised to get replies to the away message. You know, when I sent the message to students a lot of them were like “thank you for like, *seeing* me,” right, like you know “I had to go home and and no one has said anything to me, y’know, none of my professors have said anything, no one has like-- no staff that I'm connected to has really said anything because we're all in it.” And so the students had very positive feedback about it. And I should you know add that when I was writing um for the students and before the auto reply which is very similar to the students...I actually had students look at it um two of my RAs-- uh I think I can say their names --Jonathan Garcia and Candice Hopkins actually looked over it because I said I want to make sure that I'm not saying something that could you know not be helpful or can be very impactful, so like what do you -- what are y'all's thoughts? And so they reviewed it before I even sent it to students. And I'm like if it's okay for students I think it's okay for staff, for faculty, or whoever um emails me. And I was starting to notice as folks were being productive in different ways, y’know, a day or so would pass and then somebody else would be like “oh I just got this reply” like “yes to this reply!” or “yas girl!” like “whaaat!” like “what is all of this?” So it was a lot of positive, um, a lot of positive feedback about it and you know I didn't think that it was you know that grand or even, Ben as you put it, as like “doing the work.” I was like I'm just trying to, you know, ask for people to be patient with me because I'm struggling in this pandemic. I didn't think folks would receive it as, like, permission. I didn't think of it that way. I thought people would see like “oh Tynesha needs some space. Let's y’know whatever...um and there's only been maybe like one question of like “why did you put this up” um y’know “folks might be getting the wrong idea about, like, who you are by reading it. They might assume that you aren't being productive or you're not willing to do your job effectively” or something like that and so outside of that it's been completely like all positive for the most part. But I do want to acknowledge that you know I recognize that some people um might feel like it's an ask that's not appropriate really based off of where I'm seated so um yeah. Those two.

BEN: The other thing I have to say is I heard it back and it also -- it hit me again. I remember being hit the first time about the performative optimism piece, you know, this idea and I think as a white person realizing the connection of the way, you know, as I reflect a lot on like growing up in the Midwest and sort of “nice” culture and the ways that that perpetuates white supremacy and then hearing, I mean, again I was like “oh damn.” The ways that I'm ignoring or am sort of trying to just kind of plow ahead and keep going and like “if I'm optimistic I can kind of help bring everyone along” and realizing -- no. There is real power in naming what is happening. We are in a pandemic and we are working from home, we are not you know, or we are at home working as opposed to working from home. Language is really important and I appreciated that reminder um and I imagine again I think that's a powerful way. And that's why I say doing the work, right, because you're bringing in elements of social justice work that they're not just about like “oh take a pause.” You know, because I can see someone maybe doing like a version of this that would have been sort of generic. But I thought that that really brought in more... more critical thought and  really challenged people to really slow down and do that reflection which I appreciate. So I'm grateful.

JAZMIN: Ben, can you say more about, like...how this notion of like positivity or even toxic positivity is connected to Whiteness for you and white supremacy? Because  I want to be mindful that there may be folks that are just like “what do you mean? How is niceness connected to... whiteness” right “how is it connected to productivity?” yeah 

BEN: Totally um...Let's do the work. Let's go there, right?

JAZMIN: You opened the door, let us walk us through. 

BEN: It's funny because as I was thinking about having this conversation about productivity you can't help but think about capitalism right. So like, sort of the ways that I have been socialized I was saying as in the United States context have been socialized to think about productivity is through the lens of capitalism and sort of. I think about them - the um collision of of whiteness, of white supremacy with capitalism sort of fuses together and creates this idea that like 
productivity y’know...and it forces us into being more individuals in our society. So like okay like my um individual um um sorry I'm like totally looking at this bird [laughs] Um, my individual self here is - is more important than sometimes the collective and so the individual acts for me as a white person centered in the workplace as opposed to thinking about the collective nature or whatever and I think that as I think about the ways that um white niceness can be a barrier to equity and especially specifically around racial equity...it can be “oh well y’know I didn't mean that” or “oh you know…” It can be minimizing. It can be a way to center ourselves as white people in the culture y’know, like, “oh...I'm just trying to do my best here” and y’know whatever and so I think that like that reminder about this idea of how Tynesha framed it around performing positivity right that like “oh look we're all in this together,” and it sort of ignores these structural realities of our daily lives and that's for people across all identities but I think the ways that Whiteness centers itself in these conversations, then perpetuates that. And again tying it into capitalism, right. So like “okay as long as we're productive we're going to kind of set these things aside because we need to move forward,” and it's such a toxic combination because we don't tend to... and then it affects things like our how our mental and physical well-being. It affects the relationships between and among people. It has a very real and significant impacts on people's lives, right. I mean as we're seeing now and again maybe this is a segway into talking more about anti-Black racism...and it operates and -- the pernicious nature of it is that it operates and that as white folks we act like we don't know what's going on, and yet we continue to perpetuate that. So for me as a white person who was raised in a nice family, right, like “oh well I'm just being a nice person,” and really having to interrupt that, like... It can be a both/and thing, like you are a nice person and what's going on there? Like how are you using it as a detour to really talking with a clear mind about like “okay what actually is happening here is racist” or what is actually happening here is perpetuating systems and structures that adversely impact Black people. And being able to name that with clarity and being able to identify that, right, and that I've seen so many different conversations shutting people down -- and that's 
both white allies but particularly Black people and people of color in conversations around race like “oh y’know we're just we're -- we're just having this conversation.” So anyway I'm going on way too long. We can edit that down, hopefully, um...But I mean and I'm in process on that I'm not gonna lie, right. So I think that's part of why I was naming it from Tynesha as damn, like -- that's a great reminder for me the ways that like --  how do I perpetuate that? Like I like to think oh,  I'm showing up and being a kind person but that kindness is and can be a detour. And so naming it and explicitly naming it to white people and for us to think about and to be in community with each other, holding each other accountable. Like what are the ways that we're avoiding tough conversations and avoiding frankly clarity around racial equity by not acknowledging the ways that niceness derails us…. um is a lot right? yeah 

JAZMIN: Yeah, I hear that completely because I think about, like, the ways that niceness allows us to have these very superficial relationships, right. We don't actually have to connect with one another...that it's not nice to talk about race, right. And so in that way for white folks it is a way of distancing yourself from having to deal and reckon with those realities, um...That to genuinely ask someone like “how are you doing? how are you coping? how are you managing?” requires a level of genuine emotional investment in that person that I think we are...we are taught both in the workplace and even just in daily life, right, to not invest so much in people, right, to not get that invested. And so yeah, I definitely see that there are ways that this niceness is connected to having these very superficial relationships that prevent us from having genuine conversations about like the fact that there are multiple structures in place right now that are impacting us differently in the midst of COVID, right, um in the middle of these national protests that it is primarily Black folks that are out there that are protesting not only for like our livelihood and survival but also for the livelihood and survival of everyone else. And that if we're being nice and we're doing these check-offs like “how are you doing,” we don't actually create space to have that conversation,  and then we don't create opportunities for us to really reflect and think about what are... how are we complicit? How is not talking about the fact that everyone is struggling and pretending that we should just keep moving forward a part of the problem, a part of the ways that we end up silencing folks, right? The number of folks who I know who are showing up to Zoom meetings keeping it together and trying to show up as professionally as possible from home and then off of their Zoom meetings are falling apart - because I was one of them as well! - um it's...It's mind-blowing, right, that then we leave people to carry that hurt and that pain and anguish on their own as we say that we care about them, as we say that we're a community. And so really thinking about like, what is the community that we're trying to build right? Who are we as a community and how do we show care for one another, which I think to your point is absolutely antithetical to the ways that Whiteness works and functions. So thank you.

BEN: I appreciate how you frame that Jazmin and to use an example: I noticed this really early on in the pandemic on calls where there was this sort of awkwardness and the way that it was operationalized... it was very white. Like it was very much like “what are you all doing?” you know it was like again we're ignoring the reality of literal health crisis right, a worldwide pandemic. And so that again that Tynesha inviting us into that like -- “No, we're going to *name.*” And I think that's an important part of social justice work is just simply being able to name the dynamic. Otherwise we're talking about what movies we're watching on Netflix and 
we're not getting into the actual pain or the -- again your you know your email laid out so 
beautifully - that food insecurity that you know um…. and that's how Whiteness operates 
right. And again many white folks would look at that and say “oh but I didn't -- I didn't even think about that. We were just trying to check in with each other,” but that's again centering white -- whiteness and centering white supremacy culture. 

JAZMIN: And this makes me think about like how do we... or how *are* we right currently um... navigating this tension, right, of like at the end of the day I can theorize and intellectualize all day long about the ways that my body and my labor um is being exploited because I'm being 
asked to keep to keep doing and producing, while at the same time the reality is that like I also have to work because I'm trying to keep a roof over my head. I'm trying to feed myself, I'm trying to provide for family members um and so how are -- how are you both right um navigating that tension of “I need to slow down to take care of myself” while also still you know being a responsible and employable employee. Because those things are real right like we could -- we can theorize all day long and be indignant about the ways that capitalism is exploiting us 
and like, we still gotta eat .

TYNESHA: Phew, how are we not theorizing that is uh a huge ask you know i ...

JAZMIN: But we are living it, right? But we are living it!

TYNESHA: Absolutely absolutely how um how are we balancing that...I think for me um you know in regards particularly to my mental health and um having learned some of the skills that I have or coping mechanisms prior to this pandemic have been very useful to me. And it's literally having to 1) say like “you can go and take a nap, you can slow down” y’know know like “you can turn your camera off, you can y’know play with Hershey for a little bit before the next call” or something like that. Hershey's my dog, I should say. um and that's like that's been a part of my slowing down. And it's definitely been trial and error because sometimes it's like you know turning my camera off isn't enough you know or um playing with Hershey isn't enough. And sometimes i go to sleep you know taking my little nap and I wake up still like out of it because we're still in a pandemic. And so it's it's been a very hard balance, Jazmin, like dealing with the tension of “I do have a job to do” um and ….One of the things that i told myself very early on because I know that a lot of our worth is tied to capitalism, it is tied to being productive um and literally just having to look at myself and be like “you are more than what you can do,” particularly what you can do for other people in my role, like… “you are more than what you can do and you deserve more than just being put out as somebody who can do something for other folks” right and also looking at y’know, having to reflect on what of the what have the last three years particularly at UMD been like for me um as somebody who's...y’know as we talk about self-care...somebody who has worked 60s some hours a week, multiple weeks, right. Somebody who's on call for incidents where there's suicide ideation or even attempts, like somebody who has not gone to sleep um many times and in some ways I'm like actually you've--you've *earned* the right to be able to say like “I have to slow down.” Because I've actually -- if we count all the hours that I've worked over the last few years that have been over you know the typical 40-hour week then I think that makes up for the last month or so where I've kind of slowed down the productivity, because I'm still getting paid the same thing right, like. I'm still getting you know the same salary. And I want to name like also trying to take care of my family um and different expenses there, recognizing like... you know... not necessarily doing a to-do list but I -- one of my ways of taking care of myself has been “alright today if you can... if you can send this email. Just get this email out before lunch” or “get this email out by the end of the day” or complete this task by Wednesday. So that one, I'm holding myself to something and y’know we love to be able to check things off because we feel like we've accomplished something. And so part of the balance is like if my my role has given me a pretty a hard deadline for something, I'm gonna do a little bit of this today a little bit of it tomorrow a little bit of it on-- you know and and keep that going in order to stay productive and make sure that I'm not risking you know my livelihood and the livelihood of the folks that I love and take care of. So it's literally been what are the things that I can do to take care of myself. But also -- am I making things up in my mind about what people expect about like from me? Like I'm assuming I have to hurry up and respond to this email. Right. I don't necessarily have to, but even with the 24-hour rule, you know the rules that aren't really written but we all know like you have 24 hours to respond to stuff it's like -- yes, and am i also holding myself to a higher standard than what people are expecting of me and having to kind of tease that apart. 

JAZMIN: thank you right so thinking about like what are your standards and expectations um and are they aligned with what the standards and expectations are for like your unit or your team 

BEN: So before I respond to that I do want to lift up um a Black woman who is the author of I think it's called “I'm Still Here: Black Dignity in a White World” or with whiteness something it's Austin Channing Brown. I encourage folks to check her work out and if you're sort of -- you should buy the book and you can also, I think she's on Brene [Brown’s] podcast this or within the last couple weeks and that's an accessible interview and she talks about specifically about niceness and the ways that that operates and I thought that was a helpful conversation maybe for some white folks. Wow! Um, the theorizing piece... Yes Tynesha um I'm..I guess I'm left thinking a lot about “what does recovery look like?” right. like i mean...I remember being in grad school and reading about burnout you know and I was working in resident life and thinking like okay you know like, as Tynesha's just saying, like the 60 hours on call. And you feel it in your body to bring this full circle Jazmin to your initial question. And realizing the ways that this 
productivity propaganda sort of encourages us to push forward and power through or whatever and then realizing like we we are feeling in our body but we ignore that. And I think what I realized over the last few months is just like, I need to build in time for recovery. And that's both mental and physical, right, so that and that's between all these these dang meetings online. It is, it is a different level of exhaustion that I experience. I also, I'm gonna go back to something I said earlier: I got into this profession to work with students and not seeing students has also taken a toll on me. And realizing that right. Like how are there opportunities and ways that I can create more space to support them virtually you know...that's a lot that's hard um...How are we making meaning and processing all of this, right, when you know as we're all saying at the outset this all feels like a heck of a lot. And I feel like “oh I need to get this email off,” and it--it's...So the discord between sort of right like “we are literally living through a once in a century pandemic, we're on a you know century’s coming reckoning around race in this country... and yet I need to worry about getting off this document by five” and it's... how *do* you hold that? I don't know the answer to that. And sometimes I think part of the way that I try to do that is through joy and through humor and through sort of you know Tynesha’s someone that I look to for that, right. Like we gotta laugh because what else can we do at some point? like this is...this is a lot...and I don’t...I need to be candid, I mean. I feel like I say “recovery,” I don't know what that means half the time. Like okay I built in that extra 15 minutes so I can just stand up and like take a deep 
breath but then I'm plowing right back into it; what does *that* mean? you know like, I went for a walk, great; I'm still exhausted. And then how am I caring for people around me who are also impacted significantly by these multiple pandemics? It's just a lot and again I think it 
goes back to being able to acknowledge and to name it but then also recognizing that even if we name it that's not enough, right. So what are we actually doing then in organizations and then within systems and structures to look at the incentives right? Like how is this stuff rewarded? I mean I felt like we were sort of like you know I guess thrown into this sort of remote environment but then... are all of the cultural ways that we operate still operational? I feel like a lot of people are clinging to that, right, because they're looking for any sort of certainty or any kind of stability and the reality is that's not operational. and that's why again I so appreciated Tynesha's framing like “Take a deep breath y'all that stuff is no longer operational” But yet people are clinging to it so how do we engage in a world where to me it's like “No I'm sorry like you know, the same old rules don't apply” but yet we have colleagues and friends who 
are still holding to that. So how do we hold both? How do we acknowledge that but then also we're still being impacted by it right? So it's not enough to name and it's -- I think we have to continue to push and we have to um... model. But even modeling doesn't feel like enough right like okay like as I'm saying out loud, like... Tynesha did an amazing thing modeling that but like how do we change systems and structures around this stuff within a constantly dynamic situation where things are changing every day?

JAZMIN: Absolutely um...and actually both of you right like...It sounds like part of how we navigate this um like in really like embodied ways are to care for our bodies um... while holding that, like, there's still a system and structure in place that we also want to try to transform. *And* what he have in the now is caring for our bodies and ...The start of this pandemic was terrible for me, like, I was in tears, I was depressed, but still like putting in maybe even more than eight hours a day because I didn't know what else to do. And then  you all sharing this it made me think of something that Carlton said to me -- and Carlton's our Director for Diversity Training and Education -- um that's a quote by Susan L. Taylor who was the editor-in-chief at Essence back in the 90s. And he literally said to me, he was just like, “you have to give to yourself before you give yourself away.” And I was just like in tears as he said that because I was like that is so sitting with me right now and that is so much of what I hear both of you saying, right. That like, in the middle of all of this we still also have to carve time for ourselves right and to set some boundaries around like maybe this email doesn't get answered in 24 hours maybe it gets answered in 48. or whatever that period is. And so I wanted to offer that as something that like resonated with me so deeply that I literally put it on my wall and whenever I have like those moments of anxiety of like “oh I need to keep producing,” I remind myself that like I do enough, I give enough and that I get to give to myself as well. So I wanted to like uplift that because that's what I heard and what you both were sharing. And it also makes me think about like... it sounds like these conversations for you both are have -- are happening maybe in isolation but I wanted to ask like... We're working from home but we are part of teams, we are part of units, right, like... How have you all engaged this conversation on self-care and productivity and what is happening around us like with your teams as it felt like there has been space for that? Um yeah... 

TYNESHA: oof! [laughs]

JAZMIN: [laughs] I don’t know what that means

TYNESHA: No, I mean I... It's a question I haven't even thought about. Like I haven't... I'm like how has this um... what is it... what has it looked like? I think what's um... so uh...fascinating about working at home is trying to um like...I don't know how to really really get to it but it's one of those things of like I am having to be very vulnerable and bear myself to people that I've never had to, right. Every meeting that I'm in with folks that are in my unit and out of my unit, I'm like -- I have let you into my home, right? Whether we talk about that or not, it is..it is interesting that a lot of us have been in each other's homes now. And pre-pandemic you probably wouldn't have been into a lot of people's homes. Even if you're only getting a certain frame of their home, you're in my home now. And when you're in my home you see how it's decorated, you see what's in here and there are stories that - based off looking at each other's backgrounds - that we tell. Like you tell ourselves about like “oh you know Jazmin has this in her background so it must be this” and “Ben has a lamp in the corner so he must like light this way” and you know and I've found myself trying to figure out like where are people? And I imagine like people are looking at me like “where is Tynesha at” in my home and there's something very hard about um having to be vulnerable and it not feeling like a consensual thing. Like, I... Y’know the pandemic is definitely something that we don't have any control over, but I've spoken with colleagues at different institutions and one of the things that I've heard, even in the beginning were a lot of upper level staff or administrators were very much like “you need to have your camera on while we're in these meetings.” And y’know obviously there are stories that get told about like why you don't have your camera on as well as stories that are you know told about when your camera is on like  what's in your background, um and so I think what's...Y’know to your question about like how have I had these conversations within my unit I'm like, I had to get very comfortable quickly with like y'all seeing my house and my clothes on the floor or you know my dog who wants me to keep like petting and paying attention to her and she wants me to engage her and not the screen. Like... it's…. strange because we -- prior to the pandemic I think we all...I  will say I assume that people live their lives but they just live them out of my purview. Right. Now I'm like oh like y'all...you actually have a place that you go to and this is your kitchen table or this is y’know your couch or or wherever you're at. And I had to get very comfortable with my co-workers just seeing. Like alright this is where I'm at, this is what it really is. I didn't put on makeup today, like, I still got on my bonnet, I own a scarf, like... this is what it is this morning because I'm at home. And I I think I should say like, y’know, before this my home was my sanctuary. It was my place where I did not allow work, like work was just not coming here, y’know. I have an office. My office is where I do the work. When I come home I'm not responding to any emails, I'm barely responding to y’know like text messages or things like that. So I worked very hard for this to become my safe place, if you will, and I... and trying to explain that to people of like whenever I turn on my camera, whenever we're in a meeting, I already...I don't have another word but I'm going to say “violated,” like I kind of feel like I don't have a say. I haven't given consent for you to be looking at my life because you're looking at my life now you're not looking at me in a building on campus in an office space in a meeting, you're not... 
because we can all -- we put on. We perform, right? We've been performing for a long time and I'm like now I don't get to perform but it's also like *weird* because I didn't have like any uh like shift into not performing it's just like...Well I liked it better when y’know you didn't know what color my walls were painted, right? Or I liked it better when I could actually write down something and Hershey not be, like, at my knee or something, pulling on me to pay attention to her. And you know as far as like having conversations...I think I've tried different ways. I'm a trial and error woman. I will try to say it a different way, I'll try to do it a different way until I can get people on board. But I think what we've been talking about in regards to capitalism and productivity and people wanting to, Jazmin I think you said “cling to” like certainty, right, like “I can control this.” And so I've... When I've tried to bring it up oftentimes I'm met with “Yes I totally agree, *and* we still have work to do,” right, like it's like ...not a yes um or maybe it is a “yes, and” right, like still have work to do...but it's it's like almost like cognitive dissonance of folks being like “I am very tired, I'm exhausted, I don't have the answers, and I'm frustrated with the state of the world but I'm still going to keep producing because my production means something for me right now.” Like when all else is failing around me my production is all that I have. And so I've been met with “Yeah I agree with you, I think you need to take your time. And I also want to take time, but I'm not going to do it,” like resistance, right? So yeah it's been a lot of those things. 

BEN:  The piece about the home though, Tynesha, I mean that is so much and thank you for offering that. I mean I think that gives us all a lot to think about. Y’know and it makes me think a lot about power right and Jazmin you've been someone in my life that's been really good at always helping me to reframe things to be thinking about power and the power that I have as a cisgender white man in spaces. And so earlier I was talking about modeling, naming and I think I was minimizing those maybe. As I'm processing this I'm wondering if maybe those actually are helpful things for folks to be doing because maybe the three of us are having some of these conversations and checking in with people but I'm not sure that everyone is every day right. So like literally just naming “we are in a pandemic,” well I feel like that's sort of the least we can do. Maybe that is an act of resistance in some offices, right? So I don't want to trivialize that as I'm thinking about it. One thing I think that's been helpful is a document that our colleague Neela Wilson put together that...it's kind of circulated at least on the UMD campus around these ideas of like COVID-19 Working Principles: Number one is “You are not working from home. You are at your home during a crisis trying to work.” Number two - “Your personal physical, mental, and emotional health is far more important than anything else right now.” And I think it was within a week or two of the pandemic and I remember being in this faculty meeting and just offering that up and it was like “oh, well” y’know, like...Again it's sort of like, to use a phrase I heard both of you saying earlier in different ways right, it's sort of giving people the permission to acknowledge what is the reality and how messed up that is right. And so again I think we have to really do the work around thinking about how, again, capitalism and how white supremacy perpetuate a culture where simply naming what we are all experiencing in very different ways based on our identities and our lived experiences is somehow this revolutionary act. And I... that's deep and  I want to offer for folks to think about that. Other things I think that I've appreciated though again going back to power is when you know my supervisor has told folks in no one certain terms like no you will not be expected to come back to campus if you do not feel safe. And I think that's again a very powerful thing to hear from someone in power. And I've noticed when she says things like that like the way that that helps people to make meaning, and I still think people feel shame about that right. Like “well what if I'm  the only one?” or “if I'm one of the few people in the office that doesn't feel comfortable” what does that actually mean right? “Are people talking about me or what are they thinking about me?” So I think that one of the things that I'm aware of as I make meaning as I process with a lot of colleagues is as we move forward the last two months or the last two and a half months, were very clear right like stay home, six feet, mask...We could all recite it in our sleep at this point. Now we are in this period of great uncertainty, we are in a period of again like..I feel important to be protesting, I feel it's important to be out there raising our voices and there are real health implications to that. So it feels like all of a sudden there is no script, there is no five COVID principles right. It's like we're making this “S” up as we go along and I think that everyone has experienced significant anxiety and along with that anxiety can come shame and can come feelings of like y’know...and I think again that um one of the ways that this is pernicious is it is that somehow our self-worth is tied up in productivity too right ? we're like you know you know I just am not feeling it today or you know and again to your point like I didn't respond that email within 48 hours and like somehow that that makes me *sigh* I just and and the ways that we allow that to affect ourselves our view of self in a in the way that others view us is really, really sad and powerful and deep and a lot to sit with I think. Another thing I just think in closing I would say I would offer as I think about this is we're talking about our colleagues, again, we work with students, we all value students. They're significant -- I mean think about how *they* are, I mean Tynesha you were offering that you know you you reached out to students to get their input, but like.. They're all working through this too, right, so how are we creating space because i mean..I feel like we're kind of going through like a slow motion mental health crisis in this country as well, for a variety of reasons in all of these pandemics which is just being exacerbated pre-existing um inequities that were already in our system. So, deep breath right? Like kind of like being in our space and like how can we hold these spaces for each other? How can we be allowing ourselves space for recovery and operate within systems where we know pay cuts are coming, we know furloughs are coming. How the heck are we supposed to continue to maintain that sort of productivity when a lot of what I think our productivity should be measured by is the way that we are holding space for each other, the way that we are naming these dynamics. It's less about the programs we've always done, the trainings that we've always offered. It's about things like what we're doing right here, holding space, y’know, allowing folks the opportunity to make meaning of this dynamic and just... completely um... Right, i have no words. I mean just everything that's happening for us right now. And so I think creating those spaces is it it's like reframing our productivity, right, like okay no we're we're not doing that any longer. We gotta reframe. 

JAZMIN: absolutely and--- go for it go for it 

TYNESHA: I was gonna say, um..Ben you brought up students um and how important they are to this process. One of the things that I did kind of just like out of y’know “this is a hard time.” Ii created a trivia night for um all UMD student staff who were working in DRL. So like all of them, where it was a trivia night and I got questions from other resident directors um all based around like “what like if you were at a trivia night at a restaurant” or something like that so it was pop culture all of those things. And I called the trivia night “I hate it here.” And I made like a little flyer. I used to be an R.A. so --I was an R.A. years ago. But it was...it was interesting to like get these students on Zoom and see them and you know us do this “I Hate It Here” um trivia night. And um the prizes were money like this is you know money coming from me um and then the second time I had done it uh someone else had like donated money towards it but it was something for students to be able to do and participate in that was going to benefit them in some kind of way. Potentially like I can see other people um and I might be able to get money right? Because the reality is even though I'm still working *my* job, I still have my salary regardless if furloughs or pay cuts are coming. A lot of students, the last time they got a check was in March. Like the students who were working, the students who were working in the halls.. I'm like that was their last check. And they may have been anticipating working through the semester,working this summer and we didn't even address that, right? And so I was like you know it's something small because I don't have a lot of y’know a lot of finances but I'm like you know--How do we bring students into this as well? And I'm like yes, “I hate it here” sounds funny. It was something that I pulled because I heard a lot of students saying it like, “ugh i hate it here, I hate that I have to be on Zoom. I hate that I have to do class this way. I hate that I have to be back at home” right. And I was like, all right “I hate it here,” let's put it together. It's catchy and let's try to get you some coin.

JAZMIN: Right, and I appreciate you sharing -- both of you, right -- sharing that because one of one of the things that we need to be talking about is that the next pandemic is going to be, like, the mental health crisis of living through this. And that we are going to need support, our students are going to need support. And that the long-term effects of COVID go beyond, like, fears of getting sick, fears of losing family, right. It's also...people lost their livelihoods during this time. The unemployment rate skyrocketed. Like, we were just only now beginning to recover from the 2008 recession and now here we are in a pandemic that has had for quite a few of our students and even for some of us right -- we work at the university but like if we have partners who are working elsewhere who have gotten laid off right. Like the financial hit that folks have had to take because of this moment, right, are gonna be long-lasting; and so things like this where we need to be innovative and thinking about like “how do we get resources back to students?” “how do we get resources back to us, to each other?” “how do we support one another?” right, like that that's gonna be the shift I think in terms of like what this productivity conversation could be. Right, that like...How do we productively support one another long term, that isn't just thinking about like the next three to six months because that--that's going to be some heavy lifting for all of us.

BEN: Because the reality -- going back to about power -- is people in supervisory roles, in my experience, very often don't have any experience in terms of dealing with mental health. Faculty members with significant power -- they're holding a zoom session and this student is pouring their heart out to them and their first thought is, “Who the hell do I call?” We have a lot of work to do, y'all, to like really think about how we can support and link each other up in this. 

JAZMIN: So I wanna...I wanna get us to something that folks can take away, right. So the framework that we're gradually coming to for this series..It's called, right, it's called Signal Boost. Rhe framework is thinking about: who are the voices that we want to be uplifting in this moment that we want folks to be listening to, to pay attention to as we think about like what comes next right? Who are the voices, the books, the texts, the podcast that we want to have informing our thinking about what a just, equitable, humane path forward looks like? So who are y'all listening to that you're like this person has helped shape some of my thinking around this and continues to shape my thinking? [laughs] Tynesha with the “not me.”

BEN: Well I mean it's funny Jazmin because I guess I'm gonna give more of a broad answer, right, like sort of productivity combined with multiple pandemics...and I would just simply lift up...I mean I think all Black voices but specifically, um, Black feminist voices, the voices of Black women. I mean I mentioned earlier Austin Channing Brown again. Check her out. I think seeking out those folks because what I see y’know -- you look at those best seller lists 
right now, whatever, um...it's a lot of white folks, a lot of white women selling books to help white people sort of think about how to think about it. No, I need folks to..I think folks need to read Black women. It would be one thing that I would offer as a suggestion. Um there's a lot of great podcasts out there in that realm as well. If this conversation about Whiteness and productivity has left you wondering more about those broad topics about white supremacy culture there's a great podcast series on Whiteness which I'm going to stall and look up real quickly while I'm talking about it um...that i would totally recommend um and lift up to folks. Again not about centering white folks but about a great resource it is, called um “Seeing White,” 
and there's a bunch of episodes in there and they go into a lot of deep things um everything about like how do we become or how do we come to be called white people you know um 
and really learning history and unlearning so much... I think um is what i would lift up. And 
recognizing that in my experience so much of what I've learned about myself has been in 
community um with Black folks and being seen and being called in in that way. And so I would encourage white folks to be watching this to, to do that work, and to lean into it and again don't just go to like The Fortune or the um Business Insider article on productivity. Like, be critical consumers of information, right? Like if you're talking about productivity think about the lens you're looking at it through so okay like oh this is an article that's coming from you know 
a Black woman writing about this issue and coming from a critical perspective...Think about the information you're consuming and don't just go to maybe the hot click article on social media right. I think that so often our culture is that way like “Oh the headline looks good,” and then you actually drill into it there's not much there. So I think doing actual substantive work and uplifting Black women would be my recommendation.

JAZMIN: Thank you, thank you.

TYNESHA: Um...I...Black women, absolutely. Listen, listen to them um...Listen to Black trans women um and and uplift them and donate to their gender affirmation surgeries um donate to their gofundmes. And I should honestly, honestly say I want us to get to a place where students don't have to to use Change.org. They shouldn't have to write petitions and get a lot of signatures or protest or anything like that. Like we actually need to be listening to them, engaging them, and hearing them. They are smart and they've got ideas. Like they really do. Particularly the queer, trans, Black students here at the University of Maryland, on this campus. They have got a lot of ideas. And so if I'm if this is for colleagues, I'm like we need to listen to them. We need to listen to the world that they're trying to be in, the world that they are trying to create. I'm just thinking back to like what you said earlier Ben about, like, students being the people that we serve and and I you know I definitely feel like this pandemic has has caused a lot of us to lose sight of that. They are at the core of the work that I do and i always want their voices their voices to be elevated. So as a follow-up to what Ben has said, students are writing on Twitter. They're writing on reddit, they have their own blogs, they have vlogs, they're doing stuff on Youtube and you should support them and you should actually listen and engage what they are doing. And they are citing historical figures, if that's really important to you. I'm like they are citing Angela Davis, they are citing bell hooks, they... they are citing... like they are literally putting so much out like um... and I y’know, as Whitney Houston said like “I believe children are the future” and and our students are, they really are. Even younger children. I know a lot of folks are at home and some people have families, they have younger children. Talk to your children about what's going on. How do they feel about it? What are their thoughts about it? Like doing that with our families um as well. Shout out to Nickelodeon um I play Nickelodeon during the day for my dog to watch and also to watch Spongebob because those are the shows I like to watch but Nickelodeon programming that they are putting on the commercials and stuff are very -- I don't know who's on their team but somebody is putting out like *work.* They had a whole commercial about Juneteenth and like what it is and they have children literally up front talking to other children via you know a computer or whatever or television and just saying like “Black lives matter” and I'm like it literally starts that way. And so who should you read who should you listen to?

JAZMIN: the babies. Listen to the students and the babies.

TYNESHA: Yes.  Listen to the babies. Because a lot of what you know what you can get on Business Insider or something like that or even you know, um these websites that have really like 
independent websites that have really good content -- a lot of the students are writing for 
them.

BEN: yeah

TYNESHA: And so let's you know let's give them the platform, let's give them room. And not just listening to them, we also have to start showing that we trust and believe in what they also believe in. So we got to start implementing the things that the students say to us. That’s all I got.

JAZMIN thank you. No seriously thank you both. Uh I am so honored to be able to say y'all are part of my community and you two were the only ones I wanted to have this conversation with. I was like I know exactly who I want to do this with, so thank you. And hopefully you know we might have you all together on another another episode of Signal Boost, y’know start our 
own spin off, yes.